8/26/98 OIC Deposition of Monica Lewinsky
DEPOSITION OF MONICA S. LEWINSKY
before the Independent Counsel, held in the Conference Room of the Office of the Independent Counsel, Suite 490-North, 1001 Pennsylvania Avenue, N. W., Washington, D. C. 20004, beginning at 12:35 p.m., when were present:
For the Independent Counsel:
KARIN IMMERGUT, ESQUIRE
Associate Independent Counsel
MARY ANNE WIRTH, ESQUIRE
Associate Independent Counsel
Court Reporter: Elizabeth A. Eastman
MS. IMMERGUT: We are on the record. Ms. Lewinsky, could you please state and spell your full name for the record?
MS. LEWINSKY: Monica Samille Lewinsky, M-O-N-I-C-A S-A-M-I-L-L-E, L-E-W-I-N-S-K-Y.
MS. IMMERGUT: For the record, I am Karin Immergut from the Office of Independent Counsel. Seated with me is Mary Anne Wirth, also from the Office of the Independent Counsel.
Hereupon, MONICA S. LEWINSKY, having been called for examination by the Office of the Independent Counsel, and having been first duly sworn by the Notary, was examined and testified as follows:
EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE INDEPENDENT COUNSEL BY MS. IMMERGUT:
Q: Before we begin the deposition, I do want to advise you of certain rights that you have in connection with this deposition. You have already, I know, testified twice before the grand jury, and essentially the same rights do apply. First, you have a right to have an attorney present outside of the room. Do you have an attorney present?
A: Yes, I do.
Q: Who is that attorney?
A: Plato Cacheris.
Q: You have the right to consult with Mr. Cacheris any time during the testimony, and I simply ask that you just request a break when you need to consult with him. Do you understand that you have that right?
A: Yes, I do.
Q: You also generally as a witness in a deposition, or before a grand jury, have a Fifth Amendment right not to incriminate yourself. Obviously, that now is modified pursuant to the agreement that you have with the Office of the Independent Counsel. Do you understand that?
Q: Have you seen the agreement that you have, giving you immunity for your cooperation in this case?
A: Yes, I have.
Q: That also is a grand jury exhibit in this case, is it not?
A: Yes, it is.
Q: Do you have any questions about what your rights are not to incriminate yourself as part of that agreement?
A: No, I don't.
Q: In addition, as always, you are required to tell the truth during this procedure and are subject to the penalties of perjury if you do not tell the complete truth. Do you understand that?
A: Yes, I do.
Q: Any other questions that you have before we proceed?
Q: First I just want to ask you a general question. I know you have testified in two other proceedings about various aspects of your relationship with the President. Can you characterize whether or not your relationship was one that started with sex and then evolved into a friendship, or the other way around?
A: It started with a physical attraction, which led to a sexual relationship, and then the emotional and friendship aspects of that relationship developed after the beginning of our sexual relationship.
Q: I would like to place before you what I will mark as Deposition exhibit No. 1.
(Deposition Exhibit No. 1 was marked for identification.)
BY MS. IMMERGUT:
Q This is also a chart that was previously marked as Grand Jury Exhibit ML #7. You can see the Xerox copy of that sticker on this exhibit, and I will place that before you, and ask if you recognize what that exhibit is?
A Yes, I do.
Q: What do you recognize it to be?
A: A chart that I helped develop with the Office Independent Counsel to describe and enumerate themy relationship with the President, the contacts between the President and myself.
Q: As you've testified before, did you provide the information that is on this chart?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: And is it accurate to the best of your recollection of the events?
A: Yes, it is.
Q: What I would like to do is go through the events that are written in bold, which deal with the private encounters you had with the President that involved, for the most part, some sort of physical intimacy that we have listed as physical intimacy, including oral sex. I did want to get into some more detail about each incident.
Basically, with respect to each incident, I would like you to describe the circumstances leading up to the actual visit, who initiated it, how it was set up, and then I would like to ask you some details about the sexual encounters themselves that occurred during each of those visits.
So, why don't we start with the very first one, which is the second encounter that you had on November 15th, 1995, that you've already testified some about. If you can, could you just tell us how that visit was set up, and then what occurred during the visit? A: The President came back to Mr. Panetta's office and I was the only person in the office at the time, and I believe it was maybe around, I think, 10 p.m. or so, and asked me, or told me that if I wanted to meet him back in Mr. Stephanopoulos' office in about 5-10 minutes, that I could. And I told him I was interested to do that.
Q: At that time, did you understand what it was he wanted to meet with you about?
A: I had an idea. I, I, I had assumed that since we had been intimate in our previous encounter that evening, that we would again be intimate.
Q: And just to clarify for the record, the intimacy that you had earlier that night was just kissing, is that correct?
Q: So, did you, in fact, go meet with the President?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: And could you describe where you went to meet him?
A: I met him back in Mr. Stephanopoulos' office and he invited me into the back study again, and we were in the hallway. And we wereI don't remember exactly how it started. But I know that we were talking a bit and kissing. I rememberI know that heI believe I unbuttoned my jacket and he touched my, my breasts with my bra on, and then lifted either -- I don't remember if I unhooked my bra or he lifted my bra up, but hethis is embarrassing.
Q: Then touched your breasts with his hands?
A: Yes, he did.
Q: Did he touch your breasts with his mouth?
A: Yes, he did.
Q: Did he touch your genital area at all that day?
A:Yes. We moved -- I believe he took a phone call in his office, and so we moved from the hallway into the back office, and the lights were off. And at that point, he, he put his hand down my pants and stimulated me manually in the genital area.
Q: And did he bring you to orgasm?
A: Yes, he did.
Q: Back to the touching of your breasts for a minute, was that then through clothing or actually directly onto your skin?
A: He touched my breasts through clothing, being my bra, and then also without my bra on.
Q: On that occasion, did you perform oral sex on the President?
Q: Who actually initiated your performing oral sex?
A: I did.
Q: Was the President wearing pants?
A: Yes, he was.
Q: Who unzipped his pants?
A: I believe I went to go unbutton his pants and I had trouble. So, he did that. So, but
Q: So, you started it?
A: If I remember correctly.
Q: And he helped complete opening his pants?
Q: Did the President at that time do anything to stop you from doing that?
A: No. I think he asked me if I was sure I wanted to do that.
Q Did you have any other discussion with him while the sexual encounter was occurring, about the sex or what you were doing?
A: No. Actually, I don't think he asked me if I were sure I wanted to do that, because he was on the telephone. SoI'm sorry. Could you repeat what you just asked me?
Q: Did the President have any discussion with you about sex, or you with him, while the sexual encounter was occurring?
A: Not at this time. He was on the telephone for the second half when we were in the office.
Q: So, he was on the telephone while you were performing oral sex?
A: He was on the telephone while he was
Q: Touching you?
A: Touching me, and was also on the telephone when I was performing oral sex.
Q: For any part of this sexual encounter, was he then off the telephone?
A: Yes, I believe towards the end of my performing oral sex.
Q: Did he say anything about the oral sex or anything about the sex at all when he got off the phone, that you can remember?
A: He stopped me before he came, and I told him that I wanted to, to complete that. And he said that, that he needed to wait until he trusted me more. And then I think he (redacted).
Q: Did he ejaculate in your presence that time at all?
Q: How did you depart from the office, or how did you end that visit?
A: I believe we spoke for awhile and I know at some point in that conversation Ioh, that might have been Friday. Hmm. I really don't remember how it ended.
Q: Can you estimate at all how long the sexual part of your encounter with him lasted?
A: Maybe 20 minutes?
Q: How long
A: I'm not a good estimator of times.
Q: How long did the entire encounter last, if you can recall?
A: The second one of that evening?
A: Maybe half an hour or 40 minutes?
Q: So, the entire encounter did not involve simply the sexual part of it?
A: No, it didn't.
Q: Did you have talking beforehand or was most of the talking afterwards?
A: It was before and after.
Q: If I can direct your attention again back to deposition Exhibit No. 1, the chart, the next date where you Do have two encounters with the President is November 17th, 1995. Although you've described it somewhat for the grand jury, if you could now just describe in detailagain, I'll direct your attention to that second contact where there was physical intimacy including oral sex listedhow that contact came about and what occurred during the contact?
A: Yes. I had brought the President pizza, as he had asked. And when I brought it into him at the Oval Office, then he took me into the, to the back office and said that I could leave through that way. I believe we were talking for a little bit and he then, he got a phone call and he took the phone call in his bathroom.
Oh, it might have been before the phone call thatI don't, I don't remember who, who unbuttoned my jacket or anything like that. But we were kissing and he was fondling my breasts with his hands and with his mouth.
Q: Was that through clothing or not through clothing?
A: It was both.
Q: Okay. So, was there a point that your bra is removed?
Q: But you don't remember who actually removed it?
A: No. I think, I think herather than necessarily removing my bra, sometimes he would just expose my breasts.
Q By lifting the bra over your breasts?
A Yes, or sometimes lifting my bra. Oh, God.
Q So, on that occasion though, you do recall that he touched you not just through your bra, but also directly on the skin?
Q: Was there any discussion about sex while you were in this encounter with him?
A: I don't remember the specifics of it, but I know there was another discussion, I think, about him not letting me make him come, and then I had to get back toI'm sorry. Could you repeat the question?
Q: Was there any discussion during the November 17th encounter about sex during the encounter?
A: I don't know exactly what you mean. I mean, do you mean either about
A: I mean, saying things, or
Q: Well, either about what he wanted or what you wanted, or anything like that, in terms of sex?
A: No. I mean, I think that there were always things being said, but not necessarily in a conversational form. Does that make sense?
Q: Okay. And when you say there were always things being said, do you mean kind of chatting while you were having sex, or things that felt good? I don't mean that. I mean
Q: trying either implicitly giving you direction about what he wanted, or why he wouldn't ejaculate, anything like that?
A: I believe that why he wouldn't ejaculate was, was discussed again.
Q: Okay. You mentioned that the President unzipped his pants. Did you understand that to be a signal of what he wanted in terms of sex?
Q: Did he ever say anything while that was happening about what he wanted or no?
A: No. He was on the telephone.
Q: Okay. And that was on the second time also?
Q: Was he on the telephone the whole time that you performed oral sex on him on the 17th of November?
A: I don't remember.